Site Meter

Wednesday, August 24, 2005

...قول مختلف

فى تدوينتى الأخيرة لم أكن أقصد الحديث عن الحجاب و لكن كان السبب هو رغبة فى فهم لماذا هناك إصرار عند الأديان و/ أو المتدينون على تغطية شعر المرأة كما فى الإسلام و أحياناً فى المسيحية ؟ و السؤال قديم بالنسبة لى و لم يكن سببه ما دار فى المدونات فى الأيام الماضية و فى تصورى أن الأجابة قد تكون مرتبطة بأسباب ثقافية ترجع إلى ما قبل المسيحية و مازال بحثى مستمراً
أقول أنه رغم أننى لم أكن أقصد الحجاب أو غطاء الرأس الحالى و لكن الكثير من التعليقات على التدوينة تناولت الحجاب و لذلك وجدت أنه قد يكون من المفيد تقديم وجهة نظر من عالم كبير تختلف عن ما يقوله الدعاة الجدد ، هدفى هنا ليس هو ترجيح هذا الرأى أو ذاك و لكن إظهار أن هناك أمور كثيرة تحتمل الخلاف بدون إتهام هذا الطرف أو ذاك
هذه الروابط هى لمقالات للعالم المغربى محمد عابد الجابرى أستاذ الفلسفة و الفكر الإسلامى و هو أحد القلائل الذين إهتموا بدراسة العقل العربى فى مشروع بحثى ما وراءه على حسب تعبيره هو أنه لا يمكن تأسيس نهضة بعقل غير ناهض
و الآن أترككم مع المقالات
الحجاب ... قول فيه مختلف
تحياتى للجميع
............
.............
تحديث 13/10/2005
بعد ملاحظة من إنســانة بأنه لا يمكن الوصول للمقالات من خلال الروابط ، وجدت أن موقع الدكتور محمد عابد الجابرى غير موجود ، فعذراً ...، سأحاول الوصول لمصدر أخر للمقالات
.........
.........
تحديث 15/4/2006
أخيراً وجدت الموقع الجديد للدكتور محمد عابد الجابرى ، الروابط الآن تعمل

14 Comments:

At 8/24/2005 9:10 PM, Blogger ibn_abdel_aziz said...

استعد للضرب والقذف والاتهام والتشويح :)

عندما كتبت من قبل عن الدعاة الجدد بمختلف الاوجه ....كان رد الفعل الشهير
" وانت اش عرفك انت يا ...."

أو

" ما فيش فايدة ...اعداء النجاح في كل مكان "

ورغم ان الحجاب ليش قضيى رئيسية في رايي
ورغم اني اؤمن بفرضيته
الا اني اعرف الارءا الاخري واعرف ان فيها منطق لذا احترمها

لو خرجنا من راس المراة وشعرها الي فم المراة الذي لا يجد طعاما وفرجها الذي تبيعه من الفقر وثديها الذي لا تجد فيه لبنا لارضاع صغيرها

لحمينا المراة اكثر الف مرة

ويا ليت قومي يعلمون

 
At 8/25/2005 9:29 AM, Blogger ChaösGnösis said...

Great post, now we are talking - seriously.

It is very true, Aljabri is one of the most interesting Arab intellectuals writing today. "na7n wal Turath" and " Takween al 3aql al 3arabi" are two of his books that tackled the issues of "Al 3aql al 3arbi" brilliantly.

But to get a complete perspective of his 'project", I urge you to also read George Tarabishi's "wa7dat al 3aql al 3arabi" in which he very strongly debates and refutes many of Aljabri's philosophical discourse, especially in regards to Aljabri's point of: "Epistemological Rupture in the Arab Mind" Al Qatee3a al Ma3refeyya fi al 3aql al 3arabi).

of note also, their different interpretation of Ibn Tufayl's philosophical novel of "Hayy Ibn Yaqzan". Aljabri and Tarabishi, both devote a long section to this very powerful allegorical story, which is so applicable to the current conditions and debate of today.

ibn abdel aziz, well said my friend, it is so absurd that those, so-called, religious Islamists cling to the most irrelevant and simplistic points in the Islamic doctrine and belief system instead of focusing on the critical and vital issues that may help us to cross that historical bottle neck, that crisis of the "closing of the Arab mind", to a more "modern" and progressive state -

(my use of "modern and progressive" here would include thinkers such as M. Abdu, Afghani, R. Reda of the more recent past, or Ibn Rushd and Ibn Arabi in the 12th and 13th centuries - 3ala sabeel al methal, la al7assr)

Wa7ed, sometimes when one is faced with the endless tired arguments of hijab or no hijab, one is compelled to just sit it out and watch from a distance in avoidance of the frivolity and irrelevance of the entire enterprise.

So thanks for invoking the critical issues at stake as expressed by Aljabri (and Tarabishi, if I may add).....

 
At 8/25/2005 5:07 PM, Blogger wa7ed mn masr said...

العزيز إبن عبد العزيز : ما تقوله يا صديقى هو بيت القصيد:

"الا اني اعرف الارءا الاخري واعرف ان فيها منطق لذا احترمها"

يا صديقى أنت "تعرف" و تختلف و "تحترم " و هناك أخرون يجهلون و يملئون الدنيا ضجيجا و يتهمون كل من يخالفهم الرأى فلا يبقى إلا أن نقول
جميعنا معك يا ليتهم يعلمون


Dear Chaosgnosis: I do miss your valuble comments my Friend , welcomeback
لم تعد تستطيع مفاجئتى فقد اصبحت دائماً أتوقع أن كل ما أستشهد به أنت قرأته .. يا عم مش كده
ما كتبه الدكتور الجابرى فى مشروعه البحثى "تكوين العقل العربى" فى رأىّ من أهم ما كتب بالعربية فى السنوات السابقة و هو هام لقراءة واقعنا الثقافى الحالى ، لم أقرأ ما كتبه جورج طرابيشى ( من الناشر؟ )و غالباً لن أستطيع الحصول عليه الآن و لكننى سأذهب إلى بيروت قريباً ، هاقراه و أقولك
فى هذا الأطار نفسه هناك كتاب هام للدكتور عبدالله العروى "مفهوم العقل ..مقالة فى المفارقات" صادر عن المركز الثقافى العربى - المغرب و هو يتحدث عن العقل عند محمد عبده و إبن خلدون
finally my friend , i don't know if " watching from a distance in avoidance of the frivolity and irrelevance of the entire enterprise" is enough now or not?

إستشهدت بهذه الأبيات لمحمد إبراهيم أبو سنة فى تعليق فى مدونة ع القهوة و أجدها مناسبة هنا أيضاً

حيث لم ينقذ ... أن تلزم المنتصف
لم يعد ينفع الآن ...أن تعتكف

 
At 8/25/2005 8:52 PM, Blogger ChaösGnösis said...

Wa7ed, a quick reply (will reply to your other questions later my friend).
Here is Tarabishi's book reference info:
.وحدة العقل العربى لإسلامى - جورج طرابيشى Published by: DAR EL SAQI(BEIRUT)-ISBN 1-85516-553-8
First edition, 2002

This book is part of a series entitled: نقد نقد العقل العربى, mostly devoted to "debating" Aljabri's "project" of نقد العقل العربى
- all published by Dar Al Saqi / Beirut (but also available in Cairo)...

and thanks for the عبدالله العروى reference....

to be continued..

 
At 8/27/2005 8:43 AM, Blogger ChaösGnösis said...

> I don't know if " watching from a distance in avoidance of the frivolity and irrelevance of the entire enterprise" is enough now or not?

Wa7ed, I agree, it is a true conundrum!! We are damned if we do, and damned if we don't!

But the truth of the matter is, we must to engage this question with seriousness and integrity. My point regarding "frivolity" was mostly referring to when the discussion becomes too subjective and personalized and lacks any kind of (as I felt it mostly was on khealzale and 3alkahwa blogs lately). I wish the debate would be on a more elevated level.

One more point I want to make regarding the Hijab issue: I, personally, do not agree with the POV that it is a "fard" (a mandate from God). In modern times there has to be a sincere process of "ijtihad" and re-evaluation of the historic and religious circumstances surrounding this and other "shari3a" issues. And I agree, we should not shy away from debating the issue (and I do so with many intelligent veiled women friends and associates of mine).

But by the same token, when situations like the recent one in France arise, I did vigorously argue for the "right" of those French Muslim women to wear the Hijab anywhere and anytime they wish too. I took up the issue with many French intellectuals and fought hard on the side of those Muslim girls denied access to their schools because of their hijabs.

There is no contradiction whatsoever between the two positions: The governing principles are the same. If the French are arguing in the name of "Liberté, Egalité & Fraternité", then wearing a hijab in public schools is exactly that! - especially for those women/girls who truly believe in the practice with conviction, even though I still disagreed with the validity and basis of their "religious" belief in the hijab as a divine mandate (fard).

Now back to the "Closing of the Arab/Islamic Mind" as debated by Aljabri, Tarabishi and others. This is a very critical and vital "project" no matter which side of the debate one is on. The essential aspect is that it is, in fact, being debated. That it is being acknowledged that we do have serious collective cultural, religious and political issues affecting the wellbeing of our collective psyche.

Seriously my friend, I believe this should be one of the central points of our dialogue in regards to "change" in Egypt and the Arab world, and it is a very opportune and historic moment to do so.

What do you think ya wa7ed Ya Masri??

 
At 8/30/2005 10:21 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The veil is not a religious obligation.
The veil or head cover is a tool used by extreme fanatics to control people, through religion.
yes its frivolous & a stupid subject even at such times but its exactly where the battle for the minds start. If you can twist around religion & make up an obligation out of nothing such as the head cover, then you can control the masses once they obey you in the least of topics.
By same reasoning that France should have left girls to wear the headscarf out of personal freedom, would any arab country allow a western girl to to go to school in sexy uniform out of personal freedom too?
It goes both ways. The french know that scarves are not an obligation plus they know its an oppression tool which may have been forced on them & has no place in their society which they are trying to preserve (their right). just as any middle eastern would be abhored and decry any western girl or woman walking as if she was in paris or in rome as it challenges their customs & traditions (way of life).

 
At 8/30/2005 11:43 PM, Blogger ChaösGnösis said...

Anonymous,
I see your point about it "going both ways" vis a vis personal freedom and oppression, but, and that is a very critical but, even if only one girl/woman does wear her Hijab out of true belief (whether misguided or not), she should not be forced to betray her own sense of modesty and belief in order to be able to go to school.

Although I do agree with you that an individual should be able to dress as they wish, granted he/she does not over step the general (unwritten) rules of decency (tricky one to determine in most cases).

But I still don't think the comparison between ME regimes and the French government in that issue is a viable one. The French system prides itself in protecting an individual’s "Liberte, Egalite et Fraternite", but it seems it is selective in the case of Muslim women's sense of Liberte.

Again, although I do not believe in the institution of the Hijab (and many other so-called Shari'aa mandates), but if someone does take that as a foundation for their beliefs, they should be free to do so, granted they do not attempt to impose it upon the rest of their society.

 
At 9/06/2005 6:56 AM, Blogger ايمان said...

but if someone does take that as a foundation for their beliefs, they should be free to do so, granted they do not attempt to impose it upon the rest of their society.

و ماذا تقول في الحملة النفسية و الاعلامية المنظمة و التي تتحول أحيانا الي نوع من عمليات غسيل المخ و القهر الفكري و الحصار العقائدي الذي يتبعه التيار السياسي الاسلامي الممثل له الاخوان الي عمرو خالد و هذالملاحقة اينما ذهبت من ملصقات في كل مكان منذ الثمانينات و الي اليوم و التي تقرن العفة و الاخلاق و الفضيلة و الجنة و خير الدنيا و الاخرة بالحجاب و بعد ذلك تقول ان هناك حرية ؟أية حرية تعني إذا كان فكرك محاصر بفكر أوحد له مرجعية دينية مقدسة لا تقبل النقد أو الاعتراض أو حتي شبهة المناقشة علي فكرة لقد قرأت كثيرا للجابري و من قبله في بعض المصادر لأبن رشد و لمحمد عبده و أجدهم جميعا أقرب لأحترام الإنسان كما يريده الله

 
At 9/08/2005 2:16 AM, Blogger Octavus said...

very very great postings all-especially chaosgnosis-, i really do respect all ur comments BUT i want to draw ur attention to some points:-
1-there r some obligations from ALLAH that if u try to understand it by ur Philosophical point of view, u'll find it very stupid, let's take the hajj for example....u r going around a stone 7 times, then between 2 stones another 7 times& finally u kiss a stone ...if u think about, u'll say what the hell im doing, but indeed this part of ur acceptance to ALLAH orders& his prophet.
so dear wa7d mn masr, simply U or any one else-by our minor minds-shouldn't ask about the reason behind every tashree3 mn ALLAH, just be sure that it's for ur own sake.
2- Iman who mentioned that she is BORED from the flyers about hijab and thinks this has been partly affecting her freedom, and then she refers all that to our old& sick conspiracy theory.
i just say to her that this is what out community has done to us, we r facing the extremes now, just like W.Bush has said"U R EITHER WITH US OR U R AGAINST US"
But please always respect the freedom of those people in da3wa and at the end u ve the freedom to choose, and if u think their voice is loud in their da3wa, then surely u arent watching the TV recently to c the other face of the coin where almost naked girls r singing and sexual songs r broadcasted 24/7
So if u dont like their way in da3wa u can just turn ur back to it& walk away.

3-I do agree that their is much more important things in ISLAM rather than the veil & i believe that it's a very late step in the way of any muslim girl, where she should first apply the ISLAM major orders and then she can think of the other superficial things, thus being a good representatvie for ISLAM.

Sorry for this long post, but i felt these r some important points to clarify.

Finally c u either in heaven or in
hell, where we will know who is wrong & who is right.

May ALLAH help us all

 
At 9/10/2005 12:39 PM, Blogger ايمان said...

Octavus
ليس في علو صوت الدعوة لكن في الإصرار علي فكرة واحدة و اغفال ما سواها، الأخلاق تنحصر في غطاء الرأس و لا تنتمي بأي شكل من الأشكال إلي كل الفضائل الأخري من اخلاص في العمل و عدم الكذب الخدمة المجتمعية عدم النفاق حتي شعار النظافة من الإيمان، لو تم توجيه كل هذه الأموال التي أنفقت علي ملصقات الحجاب لترسيخ مبدأ واحد مما سبق لأتي ثماره في تصرفات الناس اليومية
التي بالتأكيد ستتحسن مرات مضاعفة لتقف من تلقاء نفسها في مواجهة العري و الاتجار بالاجساد الذي ارفضه بكل تأكيد و علي كل المستويات ، فليس كل من ناقش فكرة غطاء الرأس هو بالضرورة داعي للإنحلال

 
At 9/16/2005 1:28 AM, Blogger zeinab said...

الحجاب الحجاب لنخلي عشيتكوا هباب

 
At 10/12/2005 7:36 AM, Blogger ensana said...

على فكرة أنا معرفتش أوصل لأي من المقالات من خلال الروابط،هل في طريقة أخرى للاطلاع عليها؟

 
At 10/15/2005 7:02 AM, Blogger ensana said...

أشكرك على اهتمامك:)

 
At 1/31/2007 6:11 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

its here

phentermine search ENGINE
phentermine
tramadol
Farm Search Engine

 

Post a Comment

<< Home